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Carrying my discussion with Hopeofdawn forward. Anyone else is welcome to chime in.
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"I think you're giving the fantasy readers a bit of a short shrift"
Would it help if I mentioned that all of the covers for the Eternal Dungeon series are Victorian fantasy art?
"historical settings, in and of themselves, are not the primary thing that draws me to your work"
*Makes note to set next Eternal Dungeon story in a 21st-century police station.*
"It certainly doesn't convey anything as gut-wrenching, emotional, or as multifaceted as I know your work to be."
I was wondering whether maybe it could help if you pointed me to a few covers by other authors that you consider emotional, so that I could get a sense of what you're looking for.
Also, by any chance, have you seen any of my booktrailers? My cover art usually comes from one of the pictures in the trailers, so I thought maybe you could tell me whether any of the artwork I see as applicable to my stories is appropriate, in your view.
BLOOD VOW
"What parts of the story would you use as an excerpt, if you only had a thousand words to hook a reader?"
That's easy. Chapter Three, from "I did not move my gaze from his, but my expression remained masked" to "He bowed his head to me, as though he were the servant and I the master." I actually use that in one of my ads for the series.
It's a conversation between Peter and Andrew, shortly after Peter gives Andrew some the wild-berries that are used to make Koretian wine. Alternatively, I could use any of the following scenes between Peter and Andrew:
Peter and Andrew talk while sharing wine.
Peter and Andrew talk while sharing wine.
Peter and Andrew talk while sharing wine.
And so on and so forth. :) Wine plays a central role in the story. It's the symbol of friendship in Emor; hence it's the symbol of friendship between Peter and Andrew.
The scene I actually chose . . .
Wait a minute. Let me go back a bit. The painting I used for the cover is Lawrence Alma-Tadema's The Roman Wine Tasters. I first encountered it several years ago, before I thought of using it for a cover. I didn't look at the title immediately, so my first impressions were based on what I saw. Here, as best I can reconstruct it, were my first thoughts:
"There are two Romans in the picture. One is light-skinned, and the other is dark-skinned. The dark-skinned Roman is standing and pouring wine for the light-skinned Roman, who is seated; this must be a servant and his master. The master is looking at the cup, not the servant; there's a faintly arrogant appearance to his expression. The servant is looking at the master, and his expression . . . is difficult to interpret. He appears to be reserving some emotion."
That was my first impression of the painting. Now, in "Blood Vow," there's a scene where two members of a Late Antiquity style empire (Peter and Andrew) are talking to each other. Peter is light-skinned, and Andrew is dark-skinned. Peter (who is Andrew's former master and who was accused the previous year by Andrew of being arrogant) is absorbed in thought, while Andrew spends much of the scene being silent and reserved, despite his close friendship with Peter. They are sharing wine.
Bingo. "The Roman Wine Tasters" was the art I wanted for my cover.
"You don't have to be confined to using a piece of art as-is; you can reimagine it, rework it to suit your story. . . . Be ruthless—this may be your most favorite piece of art in the whole world, but if it doesn't suit your story as-is, you can chop and mangle and change it until it does. Make it *your* cover, the one that will sell your book, not just *a* cover."
First of all, let me say I'm very impressed with what you can do in ten minutes. Technically, I think what you did with the "Blood Vow" cover is lovely. In particular, in the second image you resolved a technical problem that the art posed for me (in terms of using it for cover art), namely that the figures blent in too well with the background.
But I gather that you and I have different approaches to re-using art. Your approach is to pick a piece of art and then fiddle with it until it says what you want it to say. Mine is to choose a piece of art that says what I want it to say. If a piece of art doesn't say what I want it to say, then I don't use it.
What this particular piece of art says to me - and said to me long before I decided to use it as the cover for "Blood Vow" - is that there are two men here who are close and yet also distant. They are sharing a moment of intimacy, yet something keeps the two of them apart: in the case of the light-skinned man, a certain arrogance and preoccupation, and in the case of the dark-skinned man, a certain reserve.
That's exactly what Peter and Andrew's relationship is like throughout most of the novel. To my mind, the cover conveys the feeling of tension-within-friendship that I want it to convey.
Maybe this particular cover doesn't convey to readers what it conveys to me. But the principle remains: when I take a piece of art and crop it, the results are exactly what I want, or else I choose another piece of art. I don't feel the need to manipulate the artwork through cuts or tints or color/saturation values.
(Not that I have anything against any of those techniques. When I was doing the "Blood Vow" trailer, I ran across a historical painting showing two boys cuddling up together on a bed - absolutely perfect for my purposes. Inconveniently for me, the boys were light-skinned. I tinted the painting blue - to represent the evening shadows - so that the boys could stand in for my dark-skinned characters. But I rarely feel the need to go that far. Usually cropping is enough.)
Now, from the design point of view, you're better qualified to speak than I am. I'm just wondering why it is that a piece of historical art (perhaps not this one, but some piece of historical art) can't be gut-wrenching, emotional, and multifaceted. Why does it have to be remixed to contain all that?
None of the historical novel covers I linked to before appeared to me to be manipulated, other than being cropped. (In most cases, I've previously seen the artwork the designer was using.) So it does seem to me that it's possible to achieve the proper effect through cropping alone.
THE REST OF YOUR COMMENTS
"do you *need* to see the title and author on the teeny-tiny catalog images? And if so, why?"
1) It's a requirement at Apple's iBookstore. The title and author on the cover have to match the title and author in the catalogue listing. (I can't use a logo for my name for that reason.)
2) It's a convention. Because it's a convention, readers often scan through the cover images in catalogues, rather than the accompanying text.
3) Sometimes my covers are used in places where there is no accompanying text giving the title and author - for example, on my home page.
So yeah, I'm afraid that legibility of cover text remains necessary in the digital age. :) There are a lot of print conventions that just haven't died away yet, because e-books are so recent. But I think this is a good convention. Texts on covers were never merely for information; they were also advertisements. That's why book designers spend so much time worrying about typography, rather than simply slapping the title and author down any which way and focussing on the art. Typography has a message to convey, as much as art does.
As I gather you already know. :)
"Each of those examples has professional artwork, most of which was probably created by the same artist, which along with the layout design helps emphasize the author's 'look' for that series. Working with public domain art, that will be a great deal more difficult to achieve"
*CoughPenguinClassicscough*. Yes, I know, you don't like that example. But I think it's an appropriate one, because Penguin was faced with exactly the problem you mention: how to achieve uniformity of style when dealing with diverse art. It dealt with this problem through uniformity of typography, border color, and layout.
There are three reasons I'd like my covers to have a certain amount of uniformity. For one thing, it makes designing a page on my Website exceedingly simple. I don't need to worry about covers clashing with one another, because they're all designed in such a way that they can be shown together. Secondly, if a customer is scanning through a catalog, and the same cover design keeps coming up over and over, their eye is more likely to pause. I know this, because it has happened to me. And thirdly, for the same reason that Penguin adopted a uniform design: it cuts down on the amount of time spent on designing a cover.
"Also, you might want to keep in mind the proportions of the average computer/ebook screen. I don't know them off the top of my head—2:3? 3:4?"
I don't have a hardware e-reader, but I've tested my covers in all the main software e-readers, and my covers look fine in all of them. I use the most common proportion for print books, namely 2:3, which falls within the cover guidelines provided by e-booksellers. I'd rather stick with convention because there are design reasons why that proportion has been popular among typographers.
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I feel really horrible for writing a reply that keeps saying, "Um, I prefer my way." I don't want you to feel that your time is wasted. You've honestly given me the opportunity to look at my covers with a fresh eye and approach them in a more creative manner. Even if I don't necessarily adopt specific suggestions you make, I do have a new vision for what I want, thanks to you.
January 3 2011, 19:53:25 UTC 1 year ago
‘*Makes note to set next Eternal Dungeon story in a 21st-century police station.*”
You know, I thought about this concept--and I have to stand by what I said. If you were to place the story and the characters of the Eternal Dungeon in, say--a 20th century gulag or some similar context, I’d still like the story. I’d miss some of the details, obviously--the logistical details of living/working within a cave, the bats, the crematorium, the idea of a Queendom--but for me, at least, the story that I love is about Elsdon and Layle and the other denizens of the Dungeon, and their conflicts and their joys in the midst of what could otherwise be a very grim existence. I do enjoy the rest of your worldbuilding, don’t get me wrong, but you could change any number of details to make the story less historically authentic, and I don’t think I would ever notice. I think that’s a tribute to your writing, though, that the essential emotions and thoughts behind your stories shine through, regardless of their settings. :)
“I was wondering whether maybe it could help if you pointed me to a few covers by other authors that you consider emotional, so that I could get a sense of what you're looking for.”
Oh boy, a challenge! :P Luckily I’ve been working overtime for the holiday weekend, and had time to trawl Amazon to try and find some good examples of covers. It was surprisingly difficult, though! I started with searches in the historical fantasy and ebook categories, and kept finding covers I wanted to use as examples of what NOT to do. There is a lot of amazingly awful stuff out there. :(
So I expanded my search a bit to the literary classics/historical genre, and found some examples of what I think are pretty strong covers using public domain art or similarly styled photographs. Again--all of these are IMHO, and subject to my own personal artistic prejudices, so your mileage may vary. Here’s the linkdump o’ doom:
Hoplite, Torch of Prometheus --this one I chose because of the overall cover design, and less for the art used. The picture of the helm used is pretty generic, but the way it’s used with the Greek mask on the front and the overall design of the cover makes a very striking statement.
Penguin Classics-the Jungle Book --I’m pretty sure this is cropped down from an older piece of art or illustration, because I couldn’t find a cover art credit on the ‘look inside’ feature. I like it because it’s dramatic, dynamic, grabbing the viewer with a sense of tension or impending conflict--all without showing Mowgli or any other human figures. (Plus I like the style of the illustration itself.)
The Man In The Iron Mask --probably closest, style-wise, to one of your covers. This is a cover that could have been unmemorable, using a classic piece of artwork, except for how the designer cropped the original image. You have courtiers/noblemen, all with a variety of expressions--and then you have the central figure, staring out at the reader, challenging them by almost seeming to make eye contact. Making me wonder--is this the man in the iron mask? If so, who is he? If not, what role might he play? I want to learn more about him … so I pick up the book, to find out more about the story.
A Question of Upbringing --another image, rather severely cropped, that immediately draws the eye. The look of the woman, with her hair unbound and waving in the wind, and that impish smile she’s giving the reader; again, it made me wonder kind of person this story is about, and what is so unconventional about her …. The blocks of color and type below also do a good job of balancing out the smaller image.
January 3 2011, 19:55:09 UTC 1 year ago
Vermeer’s Hat --okay, it’s hard to go wrong with a Vermeer anyway, but again, I love the cropping of this image. The hat is obviously the central shape, but the details of it (and the man who wears it) are obscured by the backlighting. The relationship between the two figures and their dramatic contrast--her obvious happiness versus his enigmatic darkness--make me wonder just what the book is about. And what *is* up with the hat? :P
The Closing of the Western Mind --I wanted to include this as another example of cropping used to good effect. This is obviously taken from a larger piece of renaissance art--and if more of the original piece had been included, would have made for a rather bland (if colorful) cover. But the designer has cleverly chosen to crop the image so that the central figure is the gray-haired man, who is lying right on top of the title--it almost looks as if he’s about to fall on it. Is he drunk? Or asleep? Or just really tired of religion? :D It draws the eye, adds a slight touch of humor, and again--makes me wonder what the book is about.
The Prince --another photo--this one is cropped and then the colors turned to photonegative to make a very stark, graphically interesting image. Not so much emotion in this one, obviously, but a good example of how you can use an image to attract the eye, I think.
“Also, by any chance, have you seen any of my booktrailers? My cover art usually comes from one of the pictures in the trailers, so I thought maybe you could tell me whether any of the artwork I see as applicable to my stories is appropriate, in your view.”
The thing is, I think much of the artwork you have chosen is appropriate--but that you’re not necessarily using it to its full potential. More on that below …
January 3 2011, 19:56:39 UTC 1 year ago
“What this particular piece of art says to me - and said to me long before I decided to use it as the cover for "Blood Vow" - is that there are two men here who are close and yet also distant. They are sharing a moment of intimacy, yet something keeps the two of them apart: in the case of the light-skinned man, a certain arrogance and preoccupation, and in the case of the dark-skinned man, a certain reserve.
That's exactly what Peter and Andrew's relationship is like throughout most of the novel. To my mind, the cover conveys the feeling of tension-within-friendship that I want it to convey.
Maybe this particular cover doesn't convey to readers what it conveys to me. But the principle remains: when I take a piece of art and crop it, the results are exactly what I want, or else I choose another piece of art. I don't feel the need to manipulate the artwork through cuts or tints or color/saturation values.”
I think what we might be running into here is a basic difference in our approaches to the original artwork you’re using. At the risk of making sweeping generalizations: it seems to me that you’re approaching your cover art from the viewpoint of an art lover or connoisseur. Someone who perhaps is walking slowly through an art gallery, stopping to contemplate the pieces that speak to you. Admiring them, soaking in the details, the artist’s original intentions versus what it says to you. Sitting down if necessary to study a work, to absorb what it means and how you might interpret it, emotionally and narratively.
Obviously there’s nothing wrong with this--I love to do it myself. In contrast, I’m approaching your cover art from more of a the viewpoint of an illustrator/designer who is trying to attract the attention of a busy bookbuyer, someone hurrying to work, or to home, or any number of places. (Or to use the internet equivalent, the idle websurfer clicking through the Amazon catalog.) Their mind isn’t on art appreciation, or what your cover might mean. They’re just looking for something to read, and your book has been shoved onto a bookstand shelf with a jumble of other paperbacks and glossy magazines (or a crowded webpage full of other links). Subtle meaning and emotion is lost in that kind of scenario, and my primary (though not the only) criteria for any art I choose will be that it needs to be distinctive. Something to catch the eye, to make the reader pause, and wonder, and most importantly--pick up the darn book to look at the back. :P
Fine artists can sneer at this relative lack of artistic integrity, but my point is that historically, art has often been created for a particular purpose, a particular viewing space--and in choosing the pieces you have, whether it’s a religious mosaic, a pre-Raphaelite painting or a medieval manuscript illumination, you’re already taking them out of their intended context. Viewing a tiny jpeg of an old Dutch master on a webpage will never carry the same weight and impact as viewing it in person, framed and set under indirect light, on the wall--so why hobble yourself unnecessarily by trying to ‘hang it on the wall’, so to speak, of your ebook covers?
“None of the historical novel covers I linked to before appeared to me to be manipulated, other than being cropped. (In most cases, I've previously seen the artwork the designer was using.) So it does seem to me that it's possible to achieve the proper effect through cropping alone.”
It is possible, and I don’t think remixing is required in *every* instance--but I do think you’re throwing out a whole lot of your available tools unnecessarily. (I would also submit that I would be willing to bet that many of those historical novel covers were probably tweaked a bit more than the casual viewer might realize. There are many subtle tricks that artists/designers can use to modify an image that are invisible to the casual eye--at least until you compare it side-by-side to the original. Or maybe I’m just cynical. :P)
January 3 2011, 19:58:57 UTC 1 year ago
I can’t really argue with Apple ibookstore requirements, unfortunately. But while trolling for my book cover examples, I did notice many, many covers that I could not make out the author name (and some that I couldn’t even make out the title!) until I clicked on the bigger versions. So you might want to check around, maybe contact Amazon or Apple, and see if maybe the conventions have changed?
Regardless, it’s hardly a dealbreaker--if you were my client, at this point I’d say ‘okay’ and just make sure the design was readable, regardless of my personal opinions on it.
“Texts on covers were never merely for information; they were also advertisements. That's why book designers spend so much time worrying about typography, rather than simply slapping the title and author down any which way and focussing on the art. Typography has a message to convey, as much as art does. As I gather you already know. :)”
Ouch! You would have to find that ancient website … I really need to take that thing down and redesign it, or replace it, or something. *is embarrassed* But yes, the Treefrog font I bought to use as part of my signature style was chosen for particular aesthetic/design reasons, so I’d certainly never argue that typography is dead. :P
(And as a side note, if you want to get a feel for my particular design style and where I’m coming from, my art site here would probably be a better--or a least more recent!--example. /end shameless plug)
I’m just still not entirely convinced that, in effect, trying to design the text for a book cover like a logo or an online avatar (both of which have to be effective at teeny-tiny sizes), is strictly necessary. Ultimately, tho, it’s your call.
Re: Cover Uniformity
You have good reasons for cover uniformity, and I really can’t argue with them. Especially since, between your writing and your health, you don’t have an unlimited amount of time or energy to fuss with your covers!
I guess I would just encourage you to perhaps look beyond the ‘white text on black background’ format and consider whether other options might be better. Don’t get me wrong, I love black and white *points at website sheepishly*, but it’s very stark, and often if you’re trying to convey emotion, certain colors, even muted, can give visual cues to nudge a viewer in the right direction.
“I'd rather stick with convention because there are design reasons why that proportion has been popular among typographers.”
That’s interesting--I’d love to see someone with better typography/design skills than mine take a crack at the classic design proportions and see whether there was any room for improvement for moden horizontal screen formats. As it stands, though, it’s hard to argue with the masters. :)
And I’m glad my comments are useful to you--I know I’m currently taking over your LJ comment-space at the moment with these cover discussions. I just hope I haven’t scared off any other commentators by getting tetchy at the anon comments in the last post--I have a bad habit of getting annoyed at non-constructive criticism. :/ Obviously nothing I say is gospel, and it’s all subject to what you want/need for your books, not to mention what you can afford to do. So if any of it helps with your sales, I’ll be very happy. :)
January 3 2011, 19:59:25 UTC 1 year ago
January 4 2011, 18:30:24 UTC 1 year ago
In a bookstore, you either do or don't already know something about a book. You can't check the reviews or ask for recommendations (although that is now a possiblity as more and more people are connected to the net via their phone or other device), so the cover and the blurb are an important supplement to thumbing through the pages. I think both will be less important as time goes on, if only because the glut of books is so enormous that unless you have a way to differentiate between them, glossy covers won't tell you anything useful. However readers may select their books now, they will eventually become experts at fine-tuning searches, and will have a folder full of review site bookmarks.